Midlands GT List Evolution

Well, the deadline for lists for the Midlands GT I discussed in my last post has come and gone, and I have sumbitted a list for what may well be my last tournament games of 8th Edition. I'll give my views on Age of Sigmar another time, once I have had a chance to read the rules and digest what sort of game it is. For now though, some thoughts about the list I will be taking and how it evolved.

CHOICE

Last time, I was having difficulty choosing between three different lists. I asked for some feedback, and a lot of people seemed to favour the VC and Ogre lists, but the most telling bit of advice was to take what I remembered most from 8th Edition. Of all three, the army that I feel will lose the most (in terms of playstyle) from the change to Age of Sigmar will be the Lizardmen, so I decided on taking them for one last spin.

Bastiladons, ho!

For those that don't know, I have also been into hospital since my last blog post to have a tumour removed from my ear. I am now starting the process of recovery, but it has meant that there has been no time for gaming between then and now. So, in order to improve my list, I turned to Twitter and to Theory.


Mark 2

The first thing Twitter suggested (alright, it was @ukrocky90 so doesn't really count!) was that Temple Guard are boring and I should take lots of dinosaurs. now I've never played the Monster Mash list to it's fullest extent, and I don't have a Carnosaur so couldn't really do it properly. However, I thought I would have a go at writing a list that fit that theme.


Saurus Oldblood: Talisman Of Preservation; Other Tricksters Shard; great weapon; light armour; Cold One 245
Saurus Oldblood: Piranha Blade; Charmed Shield; Potion Of Strength; Dawnstone; Cold One 270
Saurus Oldblood: Arabyan Carpet; Enchanted Shield; Dragonbane Gem; Sword Of Might; light armour 229

Tetto'eko 185

10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70
10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
24 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer; 3 Kroxigor 300

Stegadon: Sharpened Horns 235
Stegadon: Sharpened Horns 235
Bastilodon 150
Bastilodon 150

2,399 points

4 dinosaurs, 2 Cold One Oldbloods and an Oldblood on a Carpet, and some Skinks in the Core to do the missions. Seemed like a list that could pack a punch, be a lot of fun in some games, but get shot or out-manouvered too easily to be really competitive.

This idea was quickly abandoned in favour of the Temple Guard. I really feel that the Comp in place for Midlands pushes Lizards towards this style of list, and if there are not a clear majority of Temple Guard lists once they are published I will eat my proverbial hat. Therefore, I went back to the Mk1 list and started making adjustments.



Mark 3

The original list had a couple of areas where it could be improved. The obvious thing to change were the Ripperdactyls - I've not had a lot of practice with them and 160 point of 4+ armour is quite a lot when they do nothing for me in terms of the missions. So, if I was going to drop something it would be them.

What to replace them with though? Well, the comp line that really affects Lizards (aside from the shot cap) is the one about Mounted Saurus, Tetto and a Dispel Scroll. So it would make sense to try and get another of these in, as I only have two in the original list. I know a Scar-Vet on a Cold One comes to around 150 points, so that would be a simple change. However, with the Arcane Vassal rule a Skink Priest is such a valuable commodity that one of these carrying a scroll would be a better investment.


Slann Mage-Priest: Channelling Staff; Harmonic Convergence; Ironcurse Icon; Lore of Life; Battle Standard 375
Saurus Oldblood: Dragonhelm; Other Tricksters Shard; Talisman Of Endurance; great weapon; Cold One 231
Saurus Oldblood: Enchanted Shield; Dawnstone; Piranha Blade; Potion Of Strength; light armour 249

Tetto'eko 185
Skink Priest: Lore of Heavens 65

24 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer; 3 Kroxigor 300
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70
10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70

28 Temple Guard: Revered Guardian; Musician; Standard Bearer 422
5 Chameleon Skinks 65
3 Terradon Riders: Flaming Bolas 108

2,400 points

Dropping a single Temple Guard in addition to the Rippers gave me enough points to add in a Priest and a unit of Terradons. I'm not particularly good with these flyers either, but at least their sacrificial role is one that comes cheaper, and the Drop Rocks is rather useful in an age of small Elven cavalry units. I also gave them flaming shooting, just in case a large unit of Trolls made an appearance - Lizards struggle to find Flaming aside from using a banner slot.

The biggest change was a decision to go for Life on the Slann rather than Death. Death is an obvious Lore, and has some cracking spells in it, but for me it never does as well as it should. Purple Sun from the middle of an I2 unit is a Bad Idea(tm) and the Snipe Spells I can never get to work as they should. Dwellers though is always feared, and the idea of T8 Temple Guard is just funny! Plus, as I had Tetto I didn't need to rely on the Slann for his magic as much as in other lists.

However, I couldn't find the points for the Scroll, so the addition of Drop Rocks and some flaming shooting was not really worth it. On to the next evolution!


Mark 4

Now we started to get somewhere. The Terradons went, and in came a Bastilodon. I love these guys, they are the best thing to be added to the book in this edition, both in terms of models and rules. When running a single combat block, being able to boost their Initiative is massive, plus the addition of the laser beam will help against Elves and other chaff heavy armies. I also added the Scroll to the Priest - if that was the point of having him then he should get it, right?! I even managed to get the Ward save on the Oldblood up to a much more cannon-resiliant 4+ and return the Temple Guard to 29 strong.


Slann Mage-Priest: Channelling Staff; Harmonic Convergence; Ironcurse Icon; Lore of Life; Battle Standard 375
Saurus Oldblood: Dragonhelm; Other Tricksters Shard; Talisman Of Preservation; great weapon; Cold One 246
Saurus Oldblood: Enchanted Shield; Dawnstone; Piranha Blade; Potion Of Strength; light armour 249

Tetto'eko 185
Skink Priest: Dispel Scroll 90

24 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer; 1 Kroxigor 200
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70
10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70

29 Temple Guard: Revered Guardian; Musician; Standard Bearer 436
5 Chameleon Skinks 65
Bastilodon: Solar Engine 150

2,396 points

Again, not a huge amount of change but we can see the style of the list. The problem here was that the extra points were found from the Skink/Krox unit in the Core section, leaving me with just the Temple Guard as a combat threat. Not necessarily a problem, that Skink unit has the potential to take down some smaller stuff even with only 1 Kroxigor. However, the balance of the list just didn't look right. So I tried to find the points elsewhere to get those two Kroxigor back.


Mark 5

Now we had a plan, it was simply a case of playing a bit to get those extra points needed to keep everything I wanted. At the end of the day, it seemed the obvious place was to lose a unit of Skirmishers. Not an ideal solution, as 2 units with Javalins are a really good nuisance team. But unfortunately I just couldn't see another place to get the points from. I also sacrificed the 4+ Ward on the Oldblood back to a 5+ Ward, and the Temple Guard went back down to 28.

Now a few people might see blowpipes on the skirmishers and laugh, but I've found a unit of these are not too bad. I've certainly found a few uses for them, and the very few times I've only had a single unit of skirmishers I've felt more comfortable when they've had blowpipes. Most of the time though they will end up being sacrificed for something, so whilst javalins and shields are a good defence they don't help when you're run down!!!

Here's my final list then:


Slann Mage-Priest: Channelling Staff; Harmonic Convergence; Ironcurse Icon; Lore of Life; Battle Standard 375
Saurus Oldblood: Dragonhelm; Other Tricksters Shard; Talisman Of Endurance; great weapon; Cold One 231
Saurus Oldblood: Enchanted Shield; Dawnstone; Piranha Blade; Potion Of Strength; light armour 249

Tetto'eko 185
Skink Priest: Dispel Scroll; Lore of Heavens 90

24 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer; 3 Kroxigor 300
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
10 Skink Skirmishers: Blowpipes 70

28 Temple Guard: Revered Guardian; Musician; Standard Bearer 422
5 Chameleon Skinks 65
Bastilodon: Solar Engine 150

2,397 points


After 5 iterations, I'm fairly happy with it. It should be able to do all of the Secret Missions. It has a pretty powerful combat unit with a character who can take on almost anyone. It has a variety of magic, not reliant on a single spell. It has maxed out the shot cap. It can push forward quickly, and it can hold back. Above all, it should be fun to play with!

If you have any suggestions, or want to discuss how you build your lists, please feel free to get in touch - either below or through Twitter, or via any other means. If I do manage to get any practice in with this list I'll try and document it, and I will certainly be back after the event to let you know how my first Midlands GT went.

TTFN!

Midlands GT lists

OK, so my plan of actually writing for this thing seems to disappear with alarming regularity.. Anyway, I'll try and keep something going on here, even if it isn't that regular!

A couple of posts ago, I started to talk about the lists I was thinking of taking to the Call to War event in Bristol. I didn't end up going to the event, as my health situation got in the way. However, the principle of going through a potential army list in an open fashion is not a bad one. So I thought I would do it again! My next event is going to potentially be the last event for 8th Edition Warhammer. With all the apparent changes in the works, 9th Edition (when it does finally appear) may be unrecognisable as the game we know and love today. So I have one last hurrah to send it out in style, and that is the Midlands Grand Tournament.

At first glance at the pack, this seems a very standard 5 game event held in Birmingham. However, there are some little changes to how the scoring works that make it potentially a very interesting prospect. The first of these is the Comp. Full details can be found here on TWF but to summarise it not only limits some of the choices each army is allowed but also changes the points some armies are built to. Luckily for me, I only have 3 armies to choose from at the moment - Ogres, Lizardmen and Vampire Counts. None of these are affected too badly by the Comp, and all have 2400 points to play with.
The second thing to consider is the win conditions. Each game will be based on a Win/Loss/Draw system, but you also get extra points from 5 Secret Missions and for controlling the Fortitude on the battlefield. The Secret Missions is something that has been done before in other events, but I think it is the first time I will be playing under them, so I want whatever army I choose to be able to at least attempt them all. The Fortitude side of things is easier to plan for, as I need to ensure I have plenty myself whilst trying to eliminate my opponents. They have also slightly changed how fortitude is calculated for this event, with the General only adding 1, Skirmishers or Fast Cavalry not counting at all, and any Core Infantry unit of 20+ models counting double. This is presumably to encourage Infantry units, but just means list building becomes a bit of a headache!

A breakdown of the Secret Missions

The final hurdle is the concept of a Scoring Unit. For this event, this means a "non Skirmishing, non Fast Cavalry unit with at least one rank of 5 or more models (modified by unit type / special rules as normal) that is not suffering from the effects of disruption or fleeing." Interestingly, they don't need to have any Fortitude to count as Scoring, except for that last Secret Mission.

So those are the limitations. The next thing I have to do is choose what to take. And this is where I hit a problem - I can't decide! I've written preliminary lists for all three, giving me an idea of what I could take for each race, but that's not really helped narrow it down either. So I'm going to put all three up here and ask for feedback.

Still not as good as an Ironblaster...

Ogre Kingdoms

First up are the Ogres. These are the guys that I started 8th Edition with, and actually got me playing Warhammer again after the three power books of 7th made me give up for a while. The comp on these guys is rather light, and in one aspect actually helps them out.

So given that I don't usually take the Crown anymore, the second Ironblaster seems an obvious pick. The second line is interesting, but I much prefer Tyrants and Firebellies at the moment so I'm not sure what I would do with a Butcher instead, even if he can take Beasts or Death. Gnoblars not being Scoring makes sense, but really limits where Ogres are going to get their Scoring units from.
This is what I came up with:

Tyrant: Charmed Shield; Talisman Of Preservation; Arabyan Carpet; great weapon; heavy armour 327

Bruiser: Sword Of Striking; Enchanted Shield; Talisman Of Endurance; heavy armour; battle standard 184
Firebelly: Dispel Scroll; Potion Of Speed; Level 2 Wizard; additional hand weapon 187
Firebelly: Hellheart; great weapon 179

9 Ironguts: Standard Of Discipline; Gutlord; Bellower; standard bearer; Look-out Gnoblar 437
5 Ogres: additional hand weapons; Bellower; standard bearer 175

5 Maneaters: 5× brace of Ogre pistols; Poisoned Attacks; Sniper; Bellower; standard bearer 330
3 Mournfang Cavalry: heavy armour; ironfists; Bellower 220
1 Sabretusk 21

Ironblaster 170
Ironblaster 170

2,400 points
Fortitude = 5

I could turn the Hellheart carrying wizard into a Butcher to save some points, that could get me a second Sabretusk, but Fireball is often a lot more valuable in the early game that Spirit Leech (on a Ld7 guy) or Wildform.

Reasons to take Ogres:

• Sentimentality - I started the edition with them, they're probably my favourite army, seems fitting I should end with them.

• Combat - There are several things in this list that smash face, and that is always fun whether you're doing well or not!

• Cannons - Given that I expect a fair few WoC armies, and therefore a fair few Daemon Princes, these are one of the best ways of dealing with them.

Reasons NOT to take Ogres:

• Purple Sun - Every time I take the fat lads, this spell ruins at least one game for me. I don't think a 5 dice limit on Death would change that.

• Lack of Practice - I've not played with Ogres for a while, so I would be rather rusty. I've also not got much time for games between now and the list deadline to fine tune the list.

• Poor in Meta - Ogres really suffer against Elves, WoC and DoC, all of which are very popular at the moment. I'd probably be under the kosh in a majority of match ups.

Love these guys as much as #FatCraig does!

Lizardmen

Of all the armies I still have, I have had the most success with my Lizardmen. They have been with me the longest, and they are the one's I've been using the most recently. They have been hit a little harder under the comp, the shot cap of 70, the 50% total for Characters, and the various Magic limitations mean they can't rely on their strengths as they normally can.

However, the addition of Kroxigor to Skink units at least gives me the option to keep an all Skink Core section, and the restriction at the top really only kills the Saurus Cavalry bus (which is a shame as I've wanted to try that for a while!). This is what I came up with, a variant on my dual-Slann list from Call to War.

Slann Mage-Priest: Channelling Staff; Harmonic Convergence; Lore of Death; Battle Standard 370
Saurus Oldblood: Dragonhelm; Other Tricksters Shard; Talisman Of Endurance; great weapon; Cold One 231
Saurus Oldblood: Enchanted Shield; Dawnstone; Piranha Blade; Potion Of Strength; light armour 249

Tetto'eko 185

24 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 150
• 1 Kroxigor 50
• 1 Kroxigor 50
• 1 Kroxigor 50
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
20 Skinks: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer 130
10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70
10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield 70

29 Temple Guard: Revered Guardian; Musician; Standard Bearer 436
5 Chameleon Skinks 65
4 Ripperdactyl Riders 160

2,396 points
Fortitude = 9

I've hit the shot cap dead on at 70. and I've spent the majority of my character points in Lords, as is the way to go! I'm not too sure about the Rippers, as they are neither Scoring or providing Fortitude, but they could easily be replaced by a Scar Vet on a Cold One as I have the space in the Comp. I'm also not sold on Death on the Slann, as Purple Sun only really helps against armies that Lizards already do well against. Life would be an obvious replacement for Dwellers, but I could be tempted by Shadow to be a little more interesting.

Reasons to take Lizards:

• Familiarity - I've played them a lot, I've played them recently.Would mean that I am more familiar with how to play against different armies.

• Flexability - Given the variable nature of the Secret Missions, having an army that adapts as easily as they do would be a real advantage.

• Track Record - As I said earlier, my best results in this edition have come with Lizards. Seems to be the best hope for a decent finish!

Reasons NOT to take Lizards:

• Brain Power - Lizards means concentration. You need to be very careful to set everything up and therefore you need to keep thinking all the way through.

• Time consuming - Almost as a consequence of the above, games with Lizards tend to run long. I always finish, but I run tightest with Lizards.

• Vulnerable - They rely a lot on their characters to do the heavy lifting, so a bad roll or two with them could send things downhill quickly.

Why she would choose Ghouls as company is beyond me...

Vampire Counts


Given that the Comp has banned the Undead Legion, my Undead option defaults to Vampire Counts. I much prefer the combined list, as my army is themed to Lahmia and the Tomb King stuff helps with that regard, but you can still make some good lists with the base book. Again, Comp on Vampires really just limits screams and ethereals, and even lets them take some advantages from the Legion list like nut crumbling if the General dies.

My last attempt at a pure VC list had Count Mannfred at the helm, and I saw no reason to change from that in this system. The adding dice limit is easily negated by Master of the Black Arts, as that affects the Winds roll itself, and he really helps make the most of the small Scoring units VC get in Core via Summon Creatures of the Night.

Count Mannfred 530

Wight King: Nightshroud; Dragonbane Gem; shield; Battle Standard 159
Necromancer: Scroll Of Shielding 80
Tomb Banshee 95
Tomb Banshee 95

5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf 50
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf 50
5 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf 50
20 Zombies: musician; standard bearer 70
20 Zombies: musician; standard bearer 70
20 Zombies: musician; standard bearer 70
39 Skeleton Warriors: Lichebone Pennant; Skeleton Champion; musician; standard bearer 240

9 Crypt Horrors 342

Terrorgheist 225
3 Morghast Archai 270

2,396 points
Fortitude = 10

This is actually the second draft of this list. The first had a 4th Morghast, a 10th Crypt Horror, a unit of Fell Bats and a Dispel Scroll instead of the two Banshees and the Scroll of Shielding. However, getting the Ld10 from Manny meant that the Lichebone Pennant became an option for the Skeletons therefore the Scroll of Shielding should be able to shut down some spells in a similar way for less. The Banshees also help protect Manny from anything too nasty that gets into combat with him, as Doom and Darkness combos really nicely with their scream.

Reasons to take Vampires:

• Hold their points - In a Win/Loss/Draw system, holding your own VPs is almost as good as getting them from the enemy. The only loose points in the list are the Dire Wolves, and as long as Manny gets to cast before they all die they become much more survivable

• Pretty - Even though they've just been dipped, I still think they are the best army I have from a painting point of view.

• Hobby-tastic - I've really enjoyed playing Vampires recently (though mostly as Undead Legion) and they are the army most likely to get me excited for hobby stuff.

Reasons NOT to take Vampires: 

• Slow - The way I like to play VC is as a footslogger, and that means they are slow both to move and to react. The Terrorgheist and Morghasts help, but the rest just shambles.

• Mannfred - Not meaning that he is bad, but the model is horrible and I would have to buy him! He's also rather short on protection aside from his 5 wounds.

• Fun? - I'm not sure playing this list would actually be much fun. A fun VC list is usually awful (see my Zombie Dragon report!) and a good VC list usually isn't.

So that's it! The final part of this (rather long winded in the end, my apologies!) article is a plea for help. Either in the comments below, or via Twitter (@Sandals_ajw) please let me know what you think I should take. If there is actually some responses, I may even put it up to a vote if I can't make up my mind, so please help me decide!!!

Thanks for reading, see you next time!